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Okay I don't know why but everytime I see someone with a clipped bird heck even a picture of one I get really mad or upset and really want to try and reason with the owner about it

and I know I should calm down about that as its not my right to say but its just, I cant help it.

I find it even worse when I see photo's of the same bird with full primaries and  then newer images with it clipped I just really feel people aren't taking into consideration the birds needs and only their own.

though I guess looking up the effects of wing clipping lately probably hasn't helped

(as it turns out to no surprise wing clipping as a psychological effect on the bird causing them to be more fearful of  things passing over their head and an extreme fear of falling which obviously would not occur in a flighted bird)

I just feel people aren't doing their research on how it effects their birds mental health which is very important!

yeah i knwo I've ranted about this before but I just needed to rant again to stop myself  sending messages and  and stuff.

(they wouldn't be mean messages but i knwo people get very offended if you tell them what they re doing is not in the best interest of their bird. as people who clip their birds do love them but usually don't see the problem because they are used to how a clipped bird behaves and thus consider any possible symptoms normal.)


reposting my longer rant here so I can stop repeating myself in the comments:

As promised here is my full blowing rant on my opinion on wing clipping and the reasons why I am thoroughly against it, though i am not the best writer i do have a lot of experience with birds including having owned them for several years, having family members who have been hobbyist breeders, having experience working with birds of prey as voluntary staff and finally having completed a course in animal care in which I created  a research paper on the effects wing clipping has on a bird:

though wing clipping may seem like a good idea to prevent a bird escaping
it is known that clipped birds , if they get out side and panic  can easily get lift if their is any wind and be blown away.

Now a clipped bird has no chance of survival while a flighted bird does.
in fact it is much easier to recover a flighted bird.

one example would be the time my grandad walked outside with one of our budgies on his shoulder, a simple mistake and the bird flew off panicked and landed in a nearby tree.

my grandma immediately went outside and hung its cage on the washing line, the bird seeing it home flew straight back in

I have also learned that training your bird to fly to you can actually allow you to recall it if it ever escapes outside and actually training your bird to become free flighted (but still keeping it indoors and not free flying it just teaching it how to) will make losing your bird  very unlikely  as you will be able to recall it and it will be strong enough and familiar enough with open spaces to be recalled (people will often use a large room in their house or a gym to train free flying)

it also should be mentioned that a clipped bird is susceptible to just as many dangers such as falling from something if startled and injuring itself.

getting stepped on or having something fall on it.

or being caught by another family pet.

now aside from the physical effects the mental effects should be taken very seriously;

catching a bird to clip it causes a great deal of stress and as we know less hardy birds can die from this now because wing clipping has to be done  more than once  (in fact throughout the bird's life) this means you are causing stress for the bird  a lot more than possibly is necessary.

the mental side effects also have a negative effect  and more so on a bird that was previously flighted.

as this bird will try to fly and then suddenly find t can't now because flying is a bird's main method locomotion it itself will feel vulnerable and will be well aware that it is disabled.

I've been told a just clipped bird will often sit preen its wings for hours trying o correct the problem  it is having and often this can lead to the bird becoming an obsessive preener which can cause feather damage.

the bird will also feel a lot less confident in itself and as a result will be a lot more wary of objects passing over it  or being near the edge of something.

this of course is not normal for an animal which should have no fear of heights and unnatural for the animal

in extreme cases birds can become depressed (this is most common with birds that have previously been flighted for a long time or live with flighted birds) and begin feather plucking, lashing out at toys and fingers and screaming.

finally wing clipping has a negative effect on the respiratory system as  a bird's lungs are built for flying (they contain many air sacs and every  thing in their body from bone structure to organs to their feathery outsides has been designed for flight)  if they are not allowed to fly their respiratory system does not reach its full capacity and thus they end up with weaker a weaker one.
though this may seem not like much of an issue sine the bird has no need to fly it does mean that if a bird does get in a panic of flutter it will get out of breath quicker (making stress in to an issue again) it will also mean your bird will be more susceptible to respiratory infections which are often a big problem among birds and can result in death if untreated.

it should also be noted that the lack of flight also means your bird does not get as much stimuli as it would naturally if flighted
this means your bird cannot excessive itself properly and can result in a bird which is very lazy and risks becoming overweight or obese.

which in such a small animal can be a major problem.

So in my opinion wing clipping really is not a fair option to the bird  and when owning a pet I believe the owner should be most concerned with the mental and physical well being of their pet and not on the convenience of their pet.

there are many other option other than wing clipping such as simply shutting a door and placing a sign on it to let people know when your bird it out, placing beaded curtains in front of your door will also help prevent a bird escaping so there are many options to explore before reaching clipping.

finally I will leave with a rhetorical question:

If you had a dog that ran to escape out your front door every time you answered it;

would you consider crippling your dog so it couldn't run out the door?

or would you buy a baby gate or perhaps lock the dog away when you had to open the front door instead?

this is a question my mother told me after I first mentioned wing clipping to her after finding out it was commonplace overseas, her opinion I believe she makes quite clear.…
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froggyribbit Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2014   Digital Artist
i'm not sure what side I am on, but don't you have to reassure and calm you're bird before and after the wing clipping? I've seen plenty of birds with clipped wings that are very happy. Also if you have a bird you really shouldn't have any cats/dogs that can become a threat nor should you be unaware when the bird is walking around. A good bird owner knows where their bird is at all times. Crippling a dog is not like clipping a bird. Clipping a bird is painless, and they can still move while crippling a dog is just......plain wrong. At the same time, my bird's wings are not clipped mainly because she won't let me (she's untamed :P)
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
well its no different to declawing a cat or docking the ears/tail of a dog,
your changing the animal , altering it, to make your life easier, it does not benefit the animal and wing clipping can result in obesity in birds and high pent up energy, to be honest people owning birds in general is a problem as most people get them because they look 'pretty' or they want a pet that 'talks and sings'

In reality these birds often end up spending their whole life in a cage with no human interaction or bonding even attempted, or they end up being kept while they are young and tossed aside once they reach 4 years of age and become a problem (birds tend to start throwing fits and biting at this stage because of hormones and the stress to find a companion)

clipping a bird is painless physically
but a bird will know it can't fly if it once did, and like I said they end up more stressed because they cant  excersize and get rid of all that energy, birds dont walk everywhere it isn't their natural way of moving, and clipped birds can and do, fall off of things, damage their wings when flapping/trying to strengthen flight muscles so they can fly.

birds will also obsessively groom clipped wings 'trying to fix' the feathers because they dont understand why they are missing part of their wing and why they cant fly anymore.

clipping doesn't even solve any problems it just creates new ones and the only benefit is that the owner can place the bird on a shoulder or perch and the bird cant do what it pleases and fly off that place.

to me its unnecessary because you don't need to own a bird in the first place.

though as of current im against buying birds as pets as too many birds end up in shelters in need of homes because people don't know how to deal with them, I'm much more on th adoption side now .

personally I think: if you don't have a room for a bird in its natural state , if you dont have the capacity to shut doors every time you let the bird out, cover windows or buy net curtains, if you cant and don't want to put that effort in
then you shouldn't own a bird.

it should also be noted that most people who own birds dont really view the bird as anything more than a small pretty pet, and the damage happens here with clipping as bad clips can permanently damage wings.

too me it seems like the US has a huge thing for altering pets to make them easier to deal with (like declawing/debarking and wing clipping) or look more pleasing (docking tails/ears) stuff taht is either rare here (none of our pet shop birds are ever clipped but some people do clip here in the UK though I've never met any at the numerous bird places I've been) or against the law (declawing/debarking/docking are all against the law here unless for medical reasons as well as live feeding which is also a problem in the US)

it just seems the US likes the idea of pets as things you can do with what you please rather than living things but its very ingrained in society it seems...

though if people want o clip their birds I cant do anything about it so its what it is...

getting back on topic though

if you own a single bird you should really try working on taming it, there's lots of ways to do so  though taming a bird can take anywhere from a month to a year depending on age , the bird will be lonely if it cant interact with anyone or thing.

I did a diary of when I was raising my bird,he was bought as a young flighted bird from an aviary with no human intervention but she is now tame:…

it might be able to help you out though if your bird is older it'll take a lot longer but I do urge that you give it a try though your bird will probably freak at first its better than being alone forever!
froggyribbit Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2014   Digital Artist
Okay, thanks for clearing things up and I completely agree with the whole altering the pet's appearence. Tail docking/ ear clipping is just messed up. Here in California we have lots of pets that are illegal to own (possums, hedgehogs, etc.) Overcrowding shelters are becoming a problem and it's just really sad to see old pets getting thrown away just because they "aren't cute anymore".
dragneeI Featured By Owner Jan 19, 2013

My friends' bought their birds with clipped wings, but let them grow back, seeing that they have cats.
SO if a cat were to try and attack, the bird could at least have a fighting chance.
The also rescued a poor red shouldered macaw. His wings were clipped rEALLY short. He's very skittish, and will strike out at alot of people. He's also very easily stressed, and pulls his feathers. Poor thing, he's a very pretty bird.
OkamiShiri Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
my conure's wings were clipped when I gave him away, he had his wings clipped years ago around when I first got him and I didn't want them clipped again
she said they had moved into a new house and were worried he'd fly into the windows as it was hard to block them off (they're a bird only home, their birds are out with them like all day) so though I am against clipping, I was fine with it because they really have made him so happy... I was told he let them just stretch his wings out to clip (he never flew around much anyway, to be honest. He preferred to walk... No idea why) and he's just been so happy since he arrived at his new home; he's got two other conures, one of which he has bonded to and no longer bites or screams; they've done better than I could with him
I would have rather his wings not clipped
but I suppose it didn't seem to make a difference to him- he never used them anyway (honestly was kinda sad, I wanted to teach him to fly to me)

My lorikeet had his wings clipped too (notmychoice) and his are growing out, I don't think he'll ever be much of a flier either, I'm assuring it's because they think they cant fly - ever. After their wings are clipped

... If I said something stupid excuse me I feel. Weird? xD Today.
gingertail98 Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
So I only just saw this now, but this was a topic I never had a super strong opinion on. We always had birds when I was growing up, and it is only as of recent that we do not have any. We always had cockatiels, and the last one we decided we were going to have was one my mom got for her birthday. We named him Smokey, and my dad had retrieved him from an exotic bird rescue, and we learnt couldn't fly. At all. But he was a lovely tiel who always wanted to sit on my mom's shoulder, and when I grew older he would love to crawl up and down my arm. When he was about 17 (So I was nine) My dad, who was a social worker, was coming back from a daycare heard an awful squawking, and a male yellow cockatiel swooped down from a tree and perched itself happily on his shoulder. He was missing half of three of his toes, but seemed quite happy otherwise. We tried to find his owners, but no one ever claimed him. So, we took him in and named him Hamish. Hamish and Smokey got on fabulously and loved each other. We never clipped Hamish's wings, because we found he never wanted to leave Smokey's side, and if Smokey couldn't fly, Hamish wouldn't either. He tried a few times, flying in circles, then returning to wherever Smokey had climbed up to perch. It was really quite sweet. However, due to having his wings not being clipped, Hamish had obviously gotten out and flown quite a distance from his original home (and we had put out many ads and contacted many shelters to find his original owner) and was probably a well cared for, according to our vet. When Smokey passed away (At the age of 24 I might add!) Hamish became very depressed, and we decided to do what was best for him (As we could not financially take on another pet at the time) and rehomed him to a good friend who had a female tiel around the same age as Hamish's estimated age. She never clipped Hamish or her other tiel's wings either.

However, my grandmother has an African Grey Parrot called Peek-a-Boo (Peekie). She's been clipping his wings for years, and he hates it. He knows when she's going to do it and will start screaming and flapping his wings, and I hate being over there when they're doing it because he sounds so distressed. However, she used to never clip his wings, until he became to smart for his own good, and learnt how to open his cage and the sliding screen window and would fly away in the summer (Thank god someone found him every time) And instead of getting a new cage/finding a different solution she opted to clip his wings, and I'm not sure I quite agree with that? It's obvious it terrifies him. I can hear him from another room and it sounds like someone is torturing him, and for the next week he'll flop around miserably on the floor.

Really I guess all I'm saying is I personally don't agree with wing clipping, as we never had to with the many cockatiels we owned, but I can understand why some people might, I could just never do it.
Silenced-Dreams Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
This journal is so full of misinformation and anthropomorphisation it's rediculous. Now I'm gonna talk specifically about psittacines here as they are all I have experience with, so here goes.

1. CLIPPING WINGS IS NOTHING LIKE DECLAWING CATS OR DEBARKING DOGS. It is no more traumatising than trimming your nails or cutting your hair. You are clipping FEATHERS which are DEAD STRUCTURES and have NO NERVES. The bird feels nothing and will grow in new feathers once it goes through a moult. Unless your bird has a condition affecting feather growth, they will grow back in JUST FINE.

The only comparison I can physically see between clipping and declawing is if you're talking about PINIONING a bird, where you remove the "hand" of the wing to take away the need to interfere with the bird at all. Pinioning is only performed on birds such as waterfowl in exotic collections to prevent the birds escaping and becoming an invasive species. In the UK it can only be performed by a vet, at a certain age and only on birds in collections and not in farmyards.

2. IT WILL NOT MENTALLY SCAR YOUR BIRD. Most clippings are not severe enough to cause the bird to plummet like a stone. They will still be able to flop to the floor. It won't be pretty, but it won't do them any harm. Parrots are also natural climbers so they spend MUCH MORE TIME CLIMBING THAN THEY DO FLYING. Providing your parrots with toys and things to shred/play with will keep them plenty happy. If your bird is mentally damaged in any way, it's because of poor conditions rather than lack of flight feathers. A healthy, happy bird doesn't need to be fully flighted at all. In fact I know of plenty of clipped birds who could care less and will actually HOLD THEIR WINGS OUT TO BE CLIPPED.

This being said, clipping is a personal decision so if you don't want to, you don't have to, but I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU TEACH YOUR BIRDS RECALL TRAINING OR YOU USE A FLIGHT HARNESS. That way if they ever do get out you can call them back to you with minimal problems. As for birds being better able to defend themselves in the wild, you shouldn't be thinking about them getting away, let alone giving them the opportunity to starve to death. IT IS YOUR JOB AS A BIRD OWNER TO MAKE SURE YOUR BABIES ARE SAFE AS POSSIBLE. If clipping their wings will do it, then so be it.

The only exception to this rule I can think of is aviary birds, but they're not companion birds so they can deal with being outdoors in their aviary without much human interaction.

3. IT DOES NOT LEAVE THEM VULNERABLE IN YOUR HOME. If you're worried about stepping on your bird whilst it's out, you're not a good bird owner. If you're worried about other animals hurting your bird whilst it's out, you're not a good bird owner. IF YOU HAVE YOUR BIRD OUT, IT SHOULD BE SUPERVISED AT ALL TIMES. If you're introducing it to other pets, SUPERVISE IT, otherwise LEAVE YOUR OTHER PETS OUT OF THE ROOM WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR BIRD OUT.

Being so unobservant as to actually NOT know where your bird is can be fatal, clipped or not. If you're dumb enough to step on it then you're dumb enough to have it fly into a ceiling fan or a window or get underfoot and stood on anyway.

Birds are prone to spooking, no matter how careful you are or how safe their environment is. Anything can cause it. Cockatiels especially are prone to night-frights, where they are in danger of hurting themselves. I have known of so many flighted birds flying into windows, walls, screens, etc. NOMATTER HOW WELL YOUR BIRD KNOWS YOUR HOME, IF IT GETS SPOOKED IT WILL INEVITABLY LAUNCH ITSELF INTO THE AIR REGARDLESS AND ACCIDENTALLY KILL ITSELF.

It also prevents the likely-hood of them zipping out an accidentally open window or door when spooked.

I'm sorry if this is a bit harsh but you're putting too much personal bias and humanising birds far too much for me to take this journal and almost all of the comments with any ounce of seriousness. You are spreading a LOT of misinformation. Misinformation that is potentially downright DANGEROUS to companion birds.

Like I said, you don't have to clip your bird's wings. My girlfriend has raised several large parrots and currently owns a few, a macaw and two cockatoos. All of them are flighted. But she is a responsible bird owner who knows what she's doing, and knows what they need and how they need it. You have to know your bird and your environment and how they work together before you even get a bird, let alone consider clipping it.
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
it is also wrong to inform people they need to clip their birds wings just as much as it is to tell them they shouldn't

I would also like to point out that you should have a 'bird proof' room if keeping a bird anyway

I have owned bird's all my life they have all been flighted and I have never lost a bird due to this.

your argument for saying a wing clipping is not like declawing because it is not painful or permanent overlooks my point of the comparison, which was to compare how the animal is aware it is unable to do something it once did and this in turn can effect a bird.

I agree with your last statement but however clipping a bird does bring up as many risks on injury as an unclipped bird,

my referral to a clipped bird getting stepped on was to refer to having guests over, which I am aware having a clumsy guest come through a door and almost step on your bird is also the same as having a clumsy guest come through the door and give your bird a chance to fly away.

I would continue to provide more points but however i have grown rather tired of replying the same things over and over, thus instead I will post some links which provide some insight:


It should be mentioned that I did post this journal in a fit of rage as i was angry at people claiming not clipping as cruel and other false calls, more so after reading about birds going missing after being taken outside despite being clipped.

I actually should have mentioned I am very specific about clipping and this journal was aimed at smaller birds such as tiels and budgies and not large parrots, I am also okay with one type of clip which is the 'managed flight' clip

I was actually about to update this journal and remove it from my main page as I am tired of the same heated debate
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
so i've been listening to more arguments on the subject and two particular conversations from one person have interested me. to be honest, they seem to make sense.

mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
fair enough but
I would like to point out that they said most breeders clip their birds
while like I've mentioned in the UK they don't and it is generally seen as more of a taboo here

As for birds being depressed, perhaps depressed was'nt the right word for me to use but it is known that clipped birds get bored more easily and tend to be less active than a flighted bird

I do believe this article was the one that made me bring it up in the first place:


there is just one thing that confuses me with wing clipping

and that is people say it is to stop their bird flying in to windows or out of the house or in to a fan or in to a frying pan etc'

But what I never understand is our are these opportunities arising?
for example my bird simply isn't allowed in the kitchen or anywhere near where the front door is, she is only allowed out when I am in the room and I have a net curtain up at my window so there is no worry for flying in to it.

people say the biggest worry is a bird flying away but if your bird is kept in a room away from the front door then why would this ever occur?

the person also argue that it is not like declawing yet a beg to differ apart from it being permanent in cats wing clipping isn't exactly like cutting hair as the big difference is birds use their wings to get around so they are going to notice.

further more awe know as a fact a bird clipped too young that has not learned to fly will suffer in confidence this isn't an anthropomorphism but a fact well known which is why most bird vets wont clip a bird till it has learned to fly , most breeders too, so an effect does occur.

Then again I will say most of the animal laws and general cares methods preformed in America I disagree with as a lot of it is questionable common practice here in the UK

I suppose its different countries different methods in the end.

though I can say this person's choice of calling me misinformed is quite insulting considering I have completed two years in animal management of exotic animals ad passed with distinction level-I like to believe that means I have some knowledge on the subject,
I feel their few is rather cold and more distant from the animal's needs as despite them saying my argument was too anthromorphized I believe from what I have learned that approaching animals as more emotionless creatures which do not know of changes to themselves and do not suffer emotional is wrong

but tahtw ould be a completely different argument alltogether

brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
generally this occurs when transporting birds. a friend of mine was bringing me two cockatiels that i'd adopted from her and the carrier tore open and one got out. they did recover it eventually, but she'd been terribly injured and had lost her foot and now remains a cripple for the rest of her life. if she'd been clipped, she would have been much easier to retrieve and the chances of losing her would have been minimal at best.

i believe that birds will grow used to clipping just like Baby (the bird mentioned above) has grown used to losing her foot. animals are incredibly adaptable creatures, especially prey animals, because otherwise they would die in the wild. seems like a lesser evil than severe maiming.

clearly a bird should learn to use its wings first, that has nothing to do with clipping causing problems. a clipped bird is still able to use its wings, just not for flight. a bird that doesn't know how to fly doesn't know how to use them at all.

considering their own experience with birds, i think they're rather informed as well. thinking your views humanize them too much is not the same as thinking animals don't suffer emotionally. i know birds can suffer emotionally, but i myself think you're exaggerating the level of mental strain it puts on the animal.
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well I can understand the risk there but that seems more a risk of not having the proper carrying equipment and it is still minimal as birds usually aren't transported regularly or rather shouldn't be since we know how prone to stress they are.

But carrier cases designed for birds often have a small opening which is lockable from the outside with a latch after placing the bird in it (I have have seen these for sale at local bird shows and plan on getting one myself.

it is also notable that even a clipped bird can get lift easily outside and they are just as easily lost by careless owners who think a clipped bird wont be able to fly away and take their bird outside.

It is also much more heard of a flighted bird being returned alive to its owner than a clipped bird in the event of an escape,

this of course only applies to tame birds which will seek out people.

weather or not a bird will eventually get adapted to not being able to fly can become another long debate as we know the only flightless birds are those that have taken years to evolve.

at the end of the day this debate has nothing to do with experience or knowledge or anything like that as wing clipping is a moral debate rather than a scientific one and facts for and against it are usually based on the human involved.

it is really a moral debate of right or wrong with both sides having very good arguments as this article states: [link]

however it will not change my opinion on completely removing flight from a bird just to keep it as a pet.

and I still feel the many claims that 'wing clipping is the only way to own a pet bird' and 'you should clip otherwise your a irresponsible owner' are very misinformed arguments as well and both pet shops, vets and breeders need to stop being biased on all opinions.
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
it was the proper carrying equipment. it happened to have a slight flaw in its factory assembly that made it come open, and it was not noticeable before it was used.

it's much more heard of for flighted birds to escape than clipped birds, too. just putting that out there.

evolution =/= adaptation. evolution is something that comes from breeding, adaptation is from the individual. whether a bird can adapt in its lifespan to being unable to fly has nothing to do with evolved flightless birds.

wing clipping is a scientific debate if it can be proven that it causes trauma. i don't think such a thing has been sufficiently proven, therefore i am against the idea that wing clipping is wrong. it is not simply a moral debate since the damage should be able to be consistently and definitively proven over a series of tests.

i don't think it should be required to clip a bird either, but clipping is something that depends on circumstance. the idea that clipping in and of itself is wrong seems exaggerated to me, but the idea that clipping is the only way you can own a bird is also foolish.

pet shops, vets, and breeders WILL be biased because they have an opinion and in their opinion one thing is right and another is wrong. these people are paid to express their knowledge or opinion (pet shops and breeders by the birds they sell, vets by the work they do) so they will inherently be biased towards one cause or another at any given time. just because you don't like wing clipping doesn't mean they're wrong for seeing nothing harmful in it.
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
well then that does make it sound like a rare unavoidable event rather than a common occurrence.

most breeders I have met (which would be localized to my area) are against wing clipping however online i have found it is the more favored opinion.

it is however a moral debate as a moral debate means there are no facts involved and only opinions of people.

I personally am against wing clipping as my experience with birds clipped as been negative and they did seem to be suffering from not being able to fly this seemed to be with birds that ere once allowed to fly and only recently clipped (thus knew what they were missing in a sense) or clipped birds that were around flighted birds.

Like I have said in the area I live in wing clipping just isn't common and usually isn't even considered and I first learned about it through the internet.

so with this in mind I cannot change my opinion as my experience has been negative with clipped birds and positive with flighted ones.

I will still state that I am okay with managed flight but not (and never will be unless its for medical reasons) okay with a full clip,

Because at the end of the day birds are not luxury items and if someone cannot provide for their needs and give them an environment that is suited for them to live in and enjoy life to the fullest then they should not have them.

but at this point I feel this debate is getting repetitive and i really felt like a conclusion had come 2 post ago
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013
i still disagree that this is a purely moral debate because i feel that if it caused trauma there would be consistent proof of it. and in the two circumstances that you mentioned (clipped birds around flighted birds...why would you even need to clip a bird if you have a flighted bird unless it's a medical reason? and birds that are newly clipped) there would obviously be some discomfort in a bird. i don't think that should ever speak for birds that have been clipped and are around other clipped birds.

but even though this debate did indeed get more repetitive i think i understand your point of view a little better now. it seemed from your original post that you disagreed with any form of clipping, but now i see you're okay with both managed flight and full clipping for medical reasons. which is, really, the point that i'm at, though for a different reason than you, since i don't think it's traumatic - i just think that there are few situations where you would NEED full clipping for your bird.

thanks for your time, sorry it's been a chore xD
Vrisky Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I had one of my birds kill itself by flying up against a window before so I now clip all my birds wing tips, they can still fly up till a certain height and glide around the living room, they even become more social towards humans and other pets;;

I'm not sure where you got the idea that its a bad thing (unless it involved full removal, then yes I don't agree either)
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
(well my argument above states some of my reasons against it though i do not mind when it is not a full clip and they can still fly really)

though with all my birds I have had success in having them be very social with me so I have never seen that as an issue, as for your bird crashing I am sorry to hear that but their are ways to prevent it (such as putting up net curtains or blinds)

though this debate has been going on for a long while now and I am really done with it
songbird80880 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013
My lovebird had his wings clipped periodically throughout his life, for about 8 of his 15 years. Of course, that was nearly 18 years ago and it was a standard and common practice. It was considered cruel to not have their wings clipped, since you had the potential to lose your bird and have it die scared and alone in the wilds.
For the same reason, my cats are de-clawed. Ten years ago, it was standard practice and recommended by our vet. I didn't want to have my second cat de-clawed when I got him four years later, but he was beating up the other one so much I had no other choice. If I could undo it, I would. But all I can do is know for the future that such things are not standard for the animal.

I feel bad for the conures we get at the pet store where I work. They come with their wings clipped, and I understand why. The last thing the breeder needs is to lose a $400 bird on the way to the store. But the poor birds are always so upset and stressed by it, since they are defenseless and in a new place. We do let their wings grow out though, taking them to a vet only to have their beak and nails trimmed if needed. Birds that smart seem to be more prone to the stress of wing-clipping.

I can't say whether I would have a bird's wings clipped today or not. Unlike de-clawing, it's not an unchangeable procedure. My fear of losing the bird before it's fully trained to come to me has a big role in my hesitation since I get a lot of people coming into the store with "Lost Bird" fliers.

But to be fair, I don't have any plans for another parrot in the foreseeable future. If I were to pick a bird to have, I would go with Zebra Finches. Fun to watch, pretty and quirky voices, but not something you can really handle. Like a pet mouse, with wings.
apati3 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I completely agree. Bird's wings shouldn't be taken away. Actually I was going to have a pet bird when I was little, but when my mom said I had to clip its wings if I did so I didn't get one:(
ShayminMarx Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I used to think nothing of clipping, but when I saw how against it you were I began to think about it. Having had five parakeets (three older ones which have passed on, and the two younger ones I have now) that didn't really like human interaction and stayed in their cage, I never even had the thought of them flying. However, after I bought my lovebird, Comet, last year I began to think of it just as badly as you do. Comet loves to fly around the house from one place to another, staying by me most of the time. She comes when I call her and mocks the dog (who luckily is small and doesn't pose a threat as the two are kept apart) when she's on higher places. If she couldn't fly, I don't think she'd be the same bird she is now...
lilneopuppy Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
I have two parakeets. They don't have their wings clipped I don't really try to interact with them anymore(They are not hand raised, so they are scared of me) Sometimes I leave their cage door open but they don't even try to leave it.

Since I have two though I think they are fine with each overs company
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
yes, my bird was scared of me when I got her
it takes about a month to tame an aviary raised bird (my bird was'nt hand tame but she is getting pretty wonderful now)

but having two birds well i know milkshake and kes were never fully tame as they had become a couple in the end I had to sell them because they started breeding and as it turns out milkshake was a boy so the eggs were containing chicks.
KnightsAndDragons Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I never knew much about wing clipping, and what you've said kind of makes me want to cry...
ShinigamiSilver Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
I totally age with you, I would never clip any birds wings. I had a budgie (I named him Jay, he was blue :3) who's wings were not clipped. He would fly around the room as he pleased, until my little sister happened to open the outside window. He flew right out. I was devastated. I thought he was gone forever, until later that day, the day care, two houses down, knocked on the door. I opened the door to see the day care owner with Jay perched on her finger, and he stepped happily onto mine. Apparently Jay landed on the fencing that kept the little kids inside. A little kid thought it was a parrot and the owner knew I had a few birds. I'm sure if he had clipped wings and had been accidentally blown out, instead of flying out on his own accord, he would of been terrified and I wouldn't of had him back. Because he STILL HAD his wings, he had confidence. I never have, and never will clip a birds wings. :)
TeachMeToLearn Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I see ware you are coming from. I have two budgies, and i had their wings clipped once years ago because they had started getting into more dangourous things in the house (like sinks and things of the like). I never did it agian because they were never really the same. they were more scared to do anything. I think this had more to do with my mother took them to just a vet, instead of a bird specialist, and stressed them out when clipping them because they were not as experienced in the matter.
However i am not anti-wing clipping. I think in some cases, wings should be trimmed to the points of flight it easy, but they can't go nessasarly as far or as high. In the best of cases, it shouldn't be needed at all, but for people in small appartments, where a bird could really hurt themselves, it might be a simple awnser.
On the matter of de-clawing, i am not for it, but it's not as bad as alot of people make it out to be. Infection is possable yes, but if you fallow the vets instructions afterward, it is unlikely. So it's people's fault for not fallowing the directions, not for getting the cat de-clawed. If your cat does get an infection, it will be fairly obviouse, and it takes weeks or month(s) (depending on the infection) for a limb to get so infected that a foot has to be amputaded, and if that happens with no attempt to take the animal to the Vet, that person should clearly not have a pet.
For spaying and nutering, i think more often then not, it should occur. I have had a husky who was never nutered and he was the niced, calmist, happyist dog i could ever hope to know, and i have had a rat terrior that HAS been nutered, and he is exactly the same as he was before. Animals that are generaly going to be inside, the matter could go eather way, but for outside animals, spaying and nutering is more nessasary. A friend of mine's dog (female) was in her yard, and a male dog from down the street some how got into the yard, and now they have seven puppies. They were not prepared for this, and they were obviously not going to just dump them, but it did cause problem. Spaying and nutering generally calms males and keeps animals from getting to fights and getting injured, it also controls the population of strays. I know it sounds bad, but i would rather have one cat starve on the street, then a cat and her five kittens starve as well.
Wingdacat Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
This speaks to me. Considering I use to own a cockatiel. We use to clip his wings but he became so stressed and even aggressive that we stopped and his mood changed rapidly.
He preferred his cage to our living room though, when we let him out he ended up flying too high and hitting a banister. He lost half of his crest feathers. The sad part is, that's what eventually led to us putting him down:(
At first nothing seemed wrong, but then he started to keep his head at an odd angle, hissed at everything and everyone, stopped whistling, and fell off his perch constantly. I miss him but it was better to put him down than let him suffer.
I agree with you though, it's almost as worse as declawing a cat.
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
somehow i don't see how the act of catching and clipping a bird's wings could be any more stressful than having to catch and clip its nails (which is something that needs to be done, even if you have things like sand perches). all of my birds in the past have been clipped and they showed no psychological trauma as a result of it. they were happy, bright-eyed, friendly birds. my current bird isn't clipped and more than once he's bashed his wings by flying around his cage, and at one point even managed to catch his wing between his mirror and the cage wall while doing it.

i also doubt that being clipped causes respiratory problems. birds have lungs that are built for flight, sure, but they don't fly long distances when they're in a cage or even when they're taken out. so how would just the simple act of clipping deteriorate a bird's lungs more than having it in a cage does?

in response to your 'rhetorical' question, i leave one of my own:

if you had a dog, would you put it on a leash every time you walked it or would you let it run loose? no matter how well an animal is trained, you will never be able to say it's impossible for it to escape and be injured.
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
psychological trauma isn't something your going to notice easily and it isn't always apparent, animals do not like to show weakness especially animals considered prey by many other species.

if you believe taking away an ability from an animal which has evolved to be that why will have no side effects on it what so ever then I do worry for your perception on such issues.

AS for the respiratory system , we know it doesn't get used to its full capacity when clipped.

I don't understand how you can say cage time would be the same as clipping as a big point to miss their is the fact that being in a cage for a few hours a day and then the rest having free flight isn't the same as never exerting any excess energy.

because as we know flying takes a lot of energy and even short burst of flight can give a bird enough stimuli and excersize for it not to want to fly again for the rest of the day (I know with all my birds they usually do 3 circled (and surprisingly fast) laps around my room in flight before settling for the rest of the day, however minimum that may seem to you it helps them relieve any stress and obviously pen up energy.
the rest of the day a bird will probably only fly to reach things its interested in or follow its owner.

what I'm saying here is, clipping prevents a bird from getting fully air borne there for a bird can never be flying taking in heavy amounts of oxygen and straining wing muscles. we already are aware that clip birds have wing muscle deterioration as would be excepted as they re not using their wings.

As for your comaprison most people when walking a dog yes they do put it on a leash but they also tend to let it off leash too once they get to a park or beach.

and it should be noted that a dog on a leash doesn't lose its ability to run it is simply restrained for a while, which is similar to keeping a bird caged as it can not exert itself in its cage so shouldn't it be allowed some 'off leash' time to exert itself?

your last line is true but it is the risk you take with owning pets as we know just as many clipped birds go missing or get injured as flighted birds.

At the end of the day we knwo wing clipping started when knowledge on birds was not as clear or known as it is now in a sense it is an outdated method of animal husbandry and more and more people seem to have moved on from it many people now even train to free fly their birds which come with a great deal a many risks of its own.

it should also be noted that some countries disagree with the morals of others as I can say for over here wing clipping is rare if ever seen and is usually only reserved for ducks and chickens.

also as for your bird hitting his wings of the cage
t clipped bird can do this just as easily when trying to strengthen its wing muscles
but i have found flighted birds tend to learn quickly not to flap about so much in the cage and I can confidently say that none of my birds have ever experienced injury due to being flighted.

I will say however if i cannot convince you to not clip your bird then maybe perhaps I could suggest clipping for managed flight?
this still allows the bird to excerize some amount of flight but no where near as much as a full flighted bird and is easier controlled:

though I will never be able to agree with wing clipping myself as I have owned so many flighted birds and never had problem with them (don't fix what isn't broken?) and the fact that I love birds for being birds, I can at least agree with a clip that still allows them some of this freedom rather than a full clip which removes it from them completely.

But by your comment I feel you do not plan on changing your mind in any form which would be a real shame in my opinion but not a choice I can change so with that I will let you continue with your day

external sources provide a much more thought out reply than mine:

(sadly i could not fond my favorite informative article on the subject but i suppose these sites have as many equal points)
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
oh. after reading that article, none of my previous birds have ever been fully clipped at all. just this 'managed flight'.

you provide some interesting information, but i still don't believe that it is "abuse." i can understand a preference towards free flight (and since i've had a free flighted bird, i don't see anything wrong with keeping it that way, and Nimbus will not be getting clipped). in fact, because i'd never had a free flighted bird, when i got Nimbus a week ago i specifically asked for his wings not to be clipped. but, if i were ever to clip him i don't think i would be abusing him in any way, shape, or form. it's very rare here to see free-flighted birds and i've seen clipped birds live long, fulfilled lives without having their full flight capabilities. you say that birds can hide psychological trauma due to being prey animals, and that's true, but there's only so much they can hide. there clearly isn't that much trauma if any animal can continue to masquerade as a happy, playful creature. with trauma, even if it's not clearly unwell, it still won't be the same cheerful creature it was. perhaps it doesn't play as much, or it sleeps more. etc.

having a flighted bird is a nice idea to me. like you, i love birds for being birds, and part of the beauty of a bird is its flight. but after nearly losing one of my birds after it got out of its cage and flew into an air vent, owning an unclipped bird is a nerve-wracking experience. if Nimbus gets out right now there are a number of high places that i wouldn't be able to get him down from. if he were clipped, i wouldn't have a problem retrieving him. i just don't want him to be injured, or to lose him. that's my worst fear.

since i plan to keep him flighted, though, i found this nice little thing for those that have the same worry as me about a bird getting free while outside or somewhere unsafe: [link] even if Nimbus were trained to come when called and such, i'd be too worried of outer circumstances to let him completely free fly outside. birds are smart creatures but predators are smart too, or else they wouldn't be alive. not only that but i live on a lake where people think it's a good idea to hang discarded fishing line on trees...e___e

thank you for giving me such an extensive reply. it's definitely fascinating information.
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
well I did'nt know that
and honestly I can say I prefer that clip over any, if a bird has to be clipped had rather it be the managed ;flight as that I don't think causes as much (if any) psycholgical or physical trauma as it still allows some flight and a bird to gain some lift it really in a sense just slows them down and makes flying harder in terms of gaining height so they still get the same level of excersize as they are not completely missing their primaries as they are in a full clip.

which would explain why you never noticed a problem with any of your previous birds.

though in this case I'd still not prefer it that is more my personal believe then the effect it has on the bird so it holds no weight in argument really.

it is mostly full clips that upset me as long as a bird can gain some flight on its own accord (so it can make that jump from its favorite perch to the coffee table or whatever else) then I don't feel that is really cruel personally just excessive.

But its interesting that you say free flight is a rare thing as where I live (united kingdom) I'd actually never even heard of clipping a bird until searching it up online and finding a lot of US/other country websites mentioning it.
So as you can imagine living in a community where clipping a pet bird is unheard of and not the norm I did feel very upset at the time.

its not really clipping that completely gets me I think it is more the fact that many websites I have seen demand clipping as the only option for training or owning a pet bird which feels like false information or misleading as it is not giving bird owners all options.

I have known one bird which could not fly due to a damaged wing (my grandma owned him) this bird spent many years trying to fly he would sit and try and strengthen his muscles by flapping wildly and he would also try this when he was out and jump off coffee tables or sofas only to fall to the floor , he also almost got stepped on and he always got out of breath afterwards, he would also get very upset not being able to reach his cage at will when on the floor so it was rather sad to witness his behaviors and mannerisms as at the time I had my budgie who was very spunky and full of attitude.

of course because of his wing damage he was uneven and wouldn't get any lift at all so I do believe a full clip would effect health from first hand experience and what I have read.

Though i will agree that flighted birds are a handful but having never known any different it seems normal to me to have to bird proof my room and hang up net curtains, I actually got a vent in my room filled in and covered because I was owning my budgie at the time.

I can say having owned only flighted birds they do eventually calm down and get lazy anyway but i am fretting over my new bird too as she likes her random outbursts of flight right now though she has never crashed she often gets clumsy with landing and misses having to do a full circle of the room before trying again. but I have net curtains up at my window at all times and my bedroom is upstairs while the front door is downstairs and far away enough not to be a worry I also have an inside lock on my door so I can lock it if I need to.

I do like the idea of the flightsuit/bird harness

though i worry a cockatiel might be too small,
though I'd love to one day free fly a bird I live in a city area next to a school and a pub so its no good for me, we have a park on our doorstep but because of where it is there are lots of dogs off leash and teenagers.

however I still would like a bird harness I will probably some day own one with any luck.

I'm sorry i do tend to overeact on the subject but I have seen and read so many horror stories of birds plucking, biting or becoming really shy and depressed because of clipping though these have all been full clips.

All this flying bird talk actually reminds me of something interesting. there is a town here in the UK where a local resident lets all of his 30 or so parrots fly free in the town completely out of his control

(I know this only because I thought I was losing my mind as we stopped there on a holiday trip as a halfway point and I kept glimpsing parrots on chimneys or flying but every time I pointed it out it was too late and the bird would be gone so know one was believe me until we finally ran in to some tourist taking photos of a macaw on a chimney and we began to ask about it)

apparently the guy who owns them lets different groups of his birds different days, he pays for the damage they do and all his birds return on their own at night, I do wonder how he managed that though.

anyway I feel we probably did not get off to the best start
but you seem like a good person and a good bird owner yourself so sorry if I sounded harsh in any replies I don't try to come across that way but typing things does make it difficult to read tone I suppose ^ ^;
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
it's fine, really. i can get passionate too, especially concerning birds, so i definitely get where you're coming from. you've given some very interesting information that i'll have to mull over.

as far as the flightsuit goes, a friend of mine owns a parakeet and she uses a flightsuit. they make them for most if not all birds.

i definitely agree that clipping should not be considered the only way to manage or train a bird. extensive trust training and bird proofing are all what comes with having a bird; the only reason my room isn't really bird proof right now is because i'm moving soon and i've got everything either stacked in boxes or strewn about waiting to be sorted. of course Nimbus is too new right now for me to be letting him out of his cage at all, i've got a lot of work cut out for me since he wasn't hand-raised. i'd rather get a hand-raised bird any day but he's a parakeet and there are no parakeet breeders anywhere near me. the pain of living in an area where birds aren't a common pet, i suppose.

it's good to hear that they'll calm down over time. Nimmy's good at having spontaneous bursts of "OH MY GOD I HAVE WINGS!!!!!" and flying around frantically in his cage, knocking into the sides. it makes me nervous when he does that, but other than getting caught on the mirror (which i've since moved) he hasn't hurt himself at all. i hope it stays that way.

i really appreciate you taking the time to give me all of this information. it's very helpful!
heartbloodrose Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Student Digital Artist
im not sure in what my opinion is on this matter but when it comes to spay and neutering of cats i understand why, i have two lovely out door cats, and because their nuttered they have the lowest chances of catching a cat STD, or of getting into large fights with other dominate males preventing the spread of viruses that can be transmitted through blood and saliva. now on the human side of it i understand that it was forced on my cats in the Spca and my previous cat was not nuttered, how ever he died at a young age from being hit by a car. now for those who care about their house spaying and nuttering is a recomended by most experts because cats mark their tarritory that way. Also spaying and nuttering cats helps control the population and in a sense saves wild song birds. in rome their is a cat colony of over two hundred cats. and in my opinoin spaying and neutering helps most wild cats not to be treated as pests as populations of strays and wild cats grow so do the human problems, but i understand that humans are selfish. now declawing is wrong if you want a pet that doesnt damage your house dont get a cat!
and after thinking on wing clipping i have a friend whos mother has birds and was about to give me a set of cocatiels however my house is not fit for them, she did clip their wings and i must admit the birds where not that happy at all about it, if i had birds i dont think i would clip their wings in fear that i would hurt then in the process as i have clumsy hands.
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I will say I have nothing against neutering or spaying an animal as it is done for completely different reasons than wing clipping and prevents over population of feral or unwanted animals as well as prevents the spread of STD's
heartbloodrose Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2013  Student Digital Artist
alright i was just mentioning this from others previous comments, but some weird and suprising know how i got two girl my younger rats balls just dropped...thats shes a he.....*face palm* i still love them but it was a suprise and im at a loss at what to do since now i have a female and a male rat in the same cage.....
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
well I certainly wouldn't keep them together as you'll end up with a lot of baby rats very quickly ;.;

you could get him neutered but it isn't cheap or better yet get your girlie spayed? since spaying helps prevent the later life tumors in girls while males don't seem to get any problems.

of course its cheaper to separate but I doubt they'd appreciate that,

this is why i don't trust pet shops anymore (as same thing happened with me with milkshake and kes) thankfully with rodents I have always gotten their genders right since they ares something I was raised with to have knowledge on since everyone in y family has kept them.

you could always take one back and swap for another gender

but then saying that is pretty hypocritical and harsh of me since both my boys turned out sick and rather than take them back and swap them I paid for lots of treatments

damn rats.
heartbloodrose Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I feel silly now, i have only had male small rodents
(( not rats but Girbil))
so Females are a whole new thing for me and with more study i realized she was in heat and those were not balls though they looked alot like them the next day they were gone,but before i figured that out i panicked and was looking desperatly for another cage, imformation on what to do and checking if my other rat was pregnant, but if that situation really ever arose i will remember your advice. Sorry for the panic attack i gave. and thank you for your advice

well weather it was hypocritcal or not it was good of you to keep them,
I could of never replaced Kaiya even if it turned out she was really a boy, i fell in love with her the first time i held her. If it was for her own heath i would try my best locate a good home for her but other then that if i returned her to the pet store im afraid she would become Snake food. TAT any ways that is irelvent now Thank you for your concerns and im sorry for the false alarm.
serinity52 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Wing clipping, de-clawing, docking, cropping, descenting, neutering, and other forms of maiming are all things that bug me about people "owning" pets. :d This is a lovely rant, and all so very true. I hope one day inhumane practices can be banned. >.> I actually want to work on getting de-clawing and wing clipping illegal here in the states. :d
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I agree with you on all but neutering as it is done to stop animals like cats and dogs breeding when allowed to meet each other (with cats even more so as we know they have a serious problem with STD's and the like) many pets which arent payed and get pregnant end up having the kittens sent to a shelter or killed because we have a shelter overpopulation problem with too many people breeding pets
serinity52 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think if people would be more responsible neutering wouldn't be necessary. I agree that it has it's place, especially if it's medically necessary for the animal to live, but people who can keep un-altered pets responsibly shouldn't be penalized for it. My main thing with it is, if it's such an effective method to prevent over-population, then why don't we neuter ourselves? And besides, there are alternatives to neutering (just like in humans) like tube tying that will not bring all the negative side-effects that neutering poses.
I'm in a bit of a rush, so sorry if my thoughts are kinda jumbled around. xD
mechanicalmasochist Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
well neuturing is very important for cats like I said since most people let them roam as they please (I don't agree with that though) though i would never neuter a bird.

but neutering isn't that dangerous in fact the main risk like with any operation is the anesthetic (I have the good grace of knowing exactly how its done thanks to my previous animal care course) spaying is actually more risky.

though neuturing stops dogs being aggressive to other dogs and showing signs of dominance it also stops the risk of someones dog becoming pregnant (after all people let their dogs off leash o you cant stop them)which can be very traumatizing for a female dog to go through as she could be too young or old to cope with birthing puppies and feeding them.

finally I would always consider spaying a female rat because they actually get mammary tumour in old age and it eventually kills them while spaying them drops the high 80-70% risk down to 10-30%

Also some humans do actually get themselves neutered or spayed in a sense its not unheard of

I personally never want kids anyway and I do believe the human race is over populated too but sadly we are hypocrites and because people just keep breeding new puppies and kittens the ones in the shelter have to be put down.
serinity52 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I'll reply paragraph by paragraph here. lol

1)Like I said, there are alternatives to neutering like getting tubes tied and there is some other things being developed that would make animals sterile. The only reason anyone should EVER neuter is to prevent babies; any other reason is just selfish and lazy on the humans' part. Animal training exists for a reason. Personally, I have nothing against free-roaming cats, but I can know why you are, and I respect that. :d

2) Any operation is risky even more so when it involves anesthetic. However, I'm sure you know more about that than I do as I've never taken an animal care course. (Well, I took one in High School, but it was extremely biased and most of the info was incorrect, so you know... lol) I don't have anything to add here except, I wouldn't put any animal through a surgery unless it was life threatening. :d

3) Neutering does not stop aggression most of the time; really only proper training and socialization helps aggression. As for dominance, a dog that accepts humans as their higher ups, or alphas if you will, will not show dominance towards humans, however, dominance exchange between dogs themselves is a perfectly natural behavior and very rarely will dogs be seriously injured during this. And yes, intact males can be trained properly to not be overly dominant with other intact males. It's all a matter of how a dog is raised or trained, not if they can produce offspring or not.

4) I actually agree with you a bit on that considering how susceptible rats are to cancer and illness in general. However, I would still be hesitant about it, and if the situation ever arose where I owned an intact doe (which I will one day. :d), I would spend more time researching intact and neutered rats. :d

5) I know they do; my mom is neutered. lol We just like to call it hysterectomies and vasectomies, female and male respectively. However, few people get this procedure out of choice; most people get it because they have some medical emergency were they would die if they did not. My mom had to get hers, and my father got one willingly. :d The thing is though people often have to take hormone supplements and experience side-effects (that I'm too lazy to really research right now); I don't see anyone giving animals hormone supplements after they get neutered. xP

6)I'm right there with you; I don't want to have any biological kids. It actually kinda pisses me off that I have to make that choice thanks to everyone else who went around and made the world over-populated. But that's another debate. :d
Intact doesn't equal offspring. Irresponsible owners equal offspring. I think everyone just needs to be more properly educated just like with most things. Ignorance equals stupidity. :d
And I agree that people should stop breeding so many animals in to the world when there are ones that need to be rescued. But you could argue that people need to stop having so many babies when there are so many kids that need to be rescued from foster homes. -shrug-
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
free-roaming cats poses a danger to the cat itself. if you're okay with feral cats running around getting hit by cars and being abused by random people, then you're clearly not for animal rights.

how is getting the tubes tied any less invasive than a neutering procedure? in fact, it's even more invasive. people in relationships that don't want to have children are suggested for the man to have a vasectomy before the woman is suggested to have a hysterectomy, because the latter is far more invasive and painful.

neutering does handle aggression. training can only do so much before ANY expert will tell you to get your damn animal neutered. for this and for many other reasons, like spraying, humping, etc. training does not control hormones. at the end of the day, it's still an animal.

intact DOES equal offspring. that's why we have so many strays. that's why there are programs specifically tailored to getting feral animals spayed and neutered. education will not suddenly get all of these stray animals homes, and if you think it does, you're deluded. it's not a good idea to even go and grab an animal off the street, that's why shelters screen and train first. putting a feral animal into the hands of someone who is inexperienced (NOT the same as ignorant) is asking for disaster. plus, they reproduce at a MUCH faster rate than humans, so comparing human population to animal population is just moronic. even if we could get every stray animal out there right now adopted into a loving home, they'd have reproduced 2 times their own population by the time we did it.
serinity52 Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Clearly I've hit a sore spot with you, and that's okay, I know most people are sore about neutering, and that's why I don't often voice my opinion like this, because more often than not I get attacked. I don't really want to debate with you, because you seem a bit hot-headed and I'm not looking for an insult battle with anyone. :d I respect you're opinion, and I won't be replying to this anymore. >.<
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2013
i wasn't attacking you. i simply disagree with your opinion and think you've been sadly misinformed on the 'abusiveness' of spaying and neutering. i only aim to educate you, not insult you.
TBSNIHON Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
True I may sound crazy but... lets say they had a house fire.... They left the bird cage OPEN and the door... The bird had to fly out witch is why pets are very nice to have know the way out of danger.. They clipped the wings.... then bam there dead
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
why would they just walk over to the cage and open it and not take the bird out and take it with them?
TBSNIHON Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It's called Humam's
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013
i'm sorry. i don't know what "humam's" is
TBSNIHON Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
People who just care about them getting out..... NOT caring about Animals one bit
brokenthroat Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2013
somehow i severely doubt anyone who would care enough to stop during a house fire and go to their animal wouldn't just take it with them. why on earth would they just open the door and leave it? i've never heard of such a thing.
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Submitted on
January 11, 2013


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